Poll: Would you use a thermal paste........

O

ol' man

workin fingas to the bone
#1
that was superior to others available but at the same time of being highly thermal conductive it would also be even more electrically conductive than the silver embeded compounds out there.

I made one and I need to know if people would want it.

It is similar to the compounds available as it contains silver but gives 2 to three degrees cooler temps and it doesn't dry out.

Mandoralin was going to test it for me but I can't get ahold of him any more.

People with T-birds and exposed bridges would need to be careful. I would probably put a thin layer of rubber cement over the bridges so if some did get on them it wouldn't hurt the chip. This stuff really works great. The main plus is that it doesn't dry out.

Please give me your comments.

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R

Radek

New Member
#2
I wouldn't mind using it, but that's mainly because I'm running a pIII. I think I would try it on an Athlon, but that could be the absinth talking right now.
 
R

reeftank

New Member
#4
The key word is dead space and grip, common physics!!!!!!
Reef

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"When in doubt, cut it out"
 
O

ol' man

workin fingas to the bone
#5
Originally posted by reeftank:
The key word is dead space and grip, common physics!!!!!!
Reef

?????????

Dead air space and adhesion????

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[email protected] cBO_Sl1
abit BE6-II
256mb pc 133 2.2.2.
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100mb zipper
52xcd-rom
 
R

reeftank

New Member
#6
I a m getting the same results from Radio Shack 6.5gm @$2.00 as I was from Artic Silver II @ $8.00 @ 3.00gm, the diff is next to " 0 " if you have the right compression. I must have spent $50.00 on this Artic Silver II and havent seen shit in difference. My diff, came from a good pelt and great H2O cooling, just my 2 bits.
Thanks Reef ( John )

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"When in doubt, cut it out"
 
O

ol' man

workin fingas to the bone
#7
Fortunatly I have all that you speak of and I have the same results but as I applied this compound I noticed lower temps by about like I said 2 degrees.

The question was not if it works better but whether you would use a paste that gave the results as I have but without drying out as others can. If you want to argue about whether it works better or not save it for a different thread, that is not the objective of this thread!!!!!

Thank you!!!!!

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[email protected] cBO_Sl1
abit BE6-II
256mb pc 133 2.2.2.
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Sparkle 300watt psu
win2k
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R

reeftank

New Member
#8
This is true, if it works well, (better than Artic Silver, or Radio Shack (which does not dry out) I am willing to give you my honest opinion and pay for the shipping.
Best Regards,
John
[email protected]

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"When in doubt, cut it out"
 
O

ol' man

workin fingas to the bone
#9
Any others? I will need to mix up a batch.

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[email protected] cBO_Sl1
abit BE6-II
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DoctorFoxx

DoctorFoxx

New Member
#10
Since stability is a key factor, I probably wouldnt use anything that would put that at risk...or cause me grief of anykind. Half a dozen machines all screwing up at the same time when you need them is something I try to avoid.

My two bits.



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"I cant drive...55 !!!" Dr. Foxx Am.D.
 
R

reeftank

New Member
#11
And by the the way, this is not a place to do something but sell your wares, but I am willing to give it a try. Let me know and I might be able to help you move some of it.
Best wishes ,
John

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"When in doubt, cut it out"
 
O

ol' man

workin fingas to the bone
#12
Originally posted by DoctorFoxx:
Since stability is a key factor, I probably wouldnt use anything that would put that at risk...or cause me grief of anykind. Half a dozen machines all screwing up at the same time when you need them is something I try to avoid.

My two bits.



Lower temps=better stability, or so I thought. Also you wouldn't have to keep reapplying every month or so. Foxx maybe try it on one machine first for a month or so.

Reeftank I have O.3 mils of it right now that is it. I would only want to send about half that. You might see a bigger difference when using pelts, I am not sure though.

Here is a pic of it.



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[This message has been edited by ol' man (edited 04-29-2001).]
 
G

GunFodder

New Member
#14
I saw a post stating that AMD is now claiming that thermal paste will liquify if used on a T-bird. I don't know if this is true, it's something you might want to keep an eye on.

I personally would consider using a paste if I knew it was stable. I am using a thermal pad right now because I think the risk of damaging my T-bird by continually removing and replacing my HSF is not worth a few degrees of extra cooling.
 
C

Cal

New Member
#15
I think it just might sell ol'man. The conductivity is risky indeed, but heck, what do you think people were saying about water-cooled systems a few years back?


On a personal level though, I can't really justify it, the regular ol' "white stuff" has worked wonders for me, and never dries out either. And if a 2-3 degree fluctuation in temps is going to make or break your system then either you're clocking too high or you need a better cooling solution. Of course, that's my personal opinion - It seems like Artic Silver is selling like hotcakes, so it might be worth a shot.

Cal
 
Todd a

Todd a

New Member
#16
Yes. Thermal paste does thin out when heated. This is actually good. It helps thin out the amount on the core. You only want the paste to fill in any imperfections on the surface on the heatsink and core. If you had a perfectly lapped core and heatsink and had good enough pressure and they mated 100% flat, then thermal compound would not be needed. The only problem, this is pretty much impossible to do, so thermal compound of some type is needed.

Now the thermal conductivity is not that big of a deal. They are rated in thermal conductivity per mm, but you will likely use only 1/10th that thickness. Several people say they are getting much better results with the Actic Silver likely have a very poor mating surface, requiring the better thermal conductivity, or they did not have the heatsink seated 100% flat. Even a thermal pad works good enough if the heatsink seated correctly.

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The COMPUTER is your FRIEND!
Happiness is manditory.
 
grover

grover

Ex pert
#17
Does arctic silver II dry out? I mean, am I going to have to reapply it every month? What happens if you don't?
 
N

Nevin

New Member
#18
Todd a,

Actually, the measurement of thermal compound performance that applies to thickness is thermal resistance. The standard specification is for a layer 0.001 inch thick with a contact area of 1 square inch.

The cores of modern CPUs from both AMD and Intel are much smaller than 1 square inch so the effective thermal resistance of a thermal compound will increase as the contact area decreases.

The main reason you see discrepancies in the performance differentials between different thermal compounds is not so much due to application as it is to measurement technique. If you read through the Arctic Silver reviews at our site, you will see that testers using Intel CPUs with motherboards capable of measuring the actual internal CPU core temperatures and testers using well-designed synthetic tests report significant performance difference between compounds. Testers measuring the CPU temperature external to the core, as must be done with current AMD processors, report much less difference between thermal compounds. The science and math tell us however, that there should be a greater difference between any two compounds on an AMD processor as it dissipates more power than a comparable Intel processor and the basic formula for the temperature drop across a thermal interface is Thermal Resistance X Power Dissipated.

The reasons for this measurement discrepancy are explained in this post below that I originally posted to a forum a couple of months ago:

Unfortunately, many people do not realize that most thermal compound comparisons on computers do not reflect the actual performance differences between any two different thermal compounds. This is especially true on all AMD systems and any Intel systems that read the CPU temperature with an in-socket thermistor.

As our web site and others have pointed out for 6 months or more, temperature change compression is a natural phenomenon of secondary flow path when there is "both" heat flow and thermal resistance from chip to ceramic surface. This is the normal/natural case and cannot be avoided.

Please see these links: http://members.nbci.com/candjac/TtoVanalog.htm http://mikewarrior.freeservers.com/problempage_1.html http://mikewarrior.freeservers.com/problempage_4.html http://www.arcticsilver.com/measurement1.htm

Not only are in-socket thermistors in a secondary heat path, they also only measure an average of the CPU rear temperature (minor contact with thermistor surface) and the temperature of the air in the socket (major contact with thermistor surface) which is itself an average of the CPU rear temperature and the motherboard temperature.

With both of these factors contributing to temperature change compression, the differences between different cooling solutions, be it heatsinks or thermal compounds is minimized. In most situations, this compression can be as severe as 4 to 1 so a 4 degree difference in core temperature is only measured as a 1 degree difference.

Also, isopropyl alcohol and acetone will not begin to remove all of the existing compound on a heatsink. The fibers on a cloth or paper towel are far too large to fit into the microscopic valleys that the thermal compound fills so once a compound is applied or a thermal pad is melted, some of that compound or pad will be on that heatsink forever. Any subsequent compounds will be --at least partially -- applied over the earlier thermal material.

Please see this link: http://www.arcticsilver.com/thermal...face_basics.htm

So if you have had compound A on the heatsink and you switch to compound B, you are not really comparing A to B, you are comparing A to a mixture of A and B. If B is better, you may see some improvement, but probably not as much as if you had put B on in the first place.

Heatsink engineers understand this. Several manufacturers of high-end heatsinks apply Arctic Silver to the mating surface of all the heatsinks they send out for review then wipe it off. (This is known as 'tinting' the metal) They know that if the heatsink is tested later with a lesser compound, it will have a bit of an advantage because the AS will still be filling in most of the microscopic valleys.

In the final analysis, it all comes down to basic math:

Arctic Silver Compound: 0.001" layer 0.16 square inch contact area = 0.018 C/W thermal resistance

High-quality Non-Silicone Zinc Oxide Compound: 0.001" layer 0.16 square inch contact area = 0.125 C/W thermal resistance

Difference: 0.107C/W (And this is the best of the zinc oxide compounds and a layer only 1/1000th of an inch thick.)

CPU power dissipation X 0.107 = difference in CPU core temperature. So if your CPU is dissipating 50 watts, the CPU core temperature difference will be 50 X 0.107 = 5.35C.

The fact that in-socket thermistors will not measure this large a difference shows that the method used by most motherboards to measure CPU temperature while useful for getting a general idea of whether your processor is too hot, is worthless for making valid comparisons of thermal compounds.
The same measurement compression problems that apply to in-socket measurements also apply to measurements taken with a thermistor pressed against the side of the core. In fact, it is possible for core side measurements to actually reflect the relative performance of two compounds backwards. This occurs when the thermal compound squeezed out from the mating joint touched the thermistor alongside the core. The thermal compound with the higher thermal conductivity, while keeping the CPU core cooler, conducts more heat to the thermistor so that it reports a higher temperature.

Nevin House
Arctic Silver LLC
 
DoctorFoxx

DoctorFoxx

New Member
#19
I lap my HS with 400, then 600 grit. One dab of AS on the core, then spread it over the surface with a business card carefully. Install the HS and leave it with no probs at all. In the event I have to remove the HS, I have noticed that AS does partially liquify but does not cause any probs.

AS has caused instabilities for me if it accidently gets smeared on any contacts. Alcohol and a swab to clean, then start again.

My temps have never been better. Even wilder to note: I have some mods I do to standard CoolerMaster 6H11 HS's that have dropped 2 deg average using the stock fan which I prefer because noise has become a primary issue with me.

I encourage your research wholeheartedly and will stay tuned, but the fact that it is HYPER-CONDUCTIVE and you have not conducted tests on standard HS for comparison leaves it still in a pre-mature state.

I know that you are asking for help here in testing. We would need fresh, identical chips...say a couple DURON 800's with identical cases etc. I have all that...How much stock will I get ?


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"I cant drive...55 !!!" Dr. Foxx Am.D.
 
grover

grover

Ex pert
#20
I'd even put a dab of pure liquid silver on my core if it was going to drop the temp enough for me to squeeze some more juice
I'd just be reeal careful about putting it on! I'd probably squeeze a bead of caulk around the edge of the ceramic too, to make sure


But for now, the tube of AS2 I ordered should suffice! I was worried about the reapplication thing, because I was going to use it on my dad's computer too, and I won't be around to replace it. But if it's not a problem, then no worries!

to clean just about anything electronic: fill up squirt bottles with acetone, isopropyl alchohol and deoniozed water. Rinse with acetone. Rinse with Iso. Rinse with a lot of DI water. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeate the last 4 steps (including this one) a bunch more times. Eventually, it will be perfectly clean
Your proc's been through this probably hungreds of times, if not thousands... Unfortunately, I don't have a ready source of DI *sigh*. I do have this can of NAPA/CRC electronics cleaner tho- is it safe to clean heatsinks with? Ingrediants list: "Methanol 67-56-1, n-Hexane 110-54-3, isohexane 107-83-5, petroleum distallates 64742-48-9 and carbon dioxide". If the petroleum distallates included are volitile, I don't see how it would leave and oils behind... what do those #s mean?
 

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