D3D T&L Support
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Thread: D3D T&L Support

  1. #1
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    D3D T&L Support

    I have a question that is software related.
    Although using a Geforce 2 GTS, I have experienced that the game Messiah runs slower when I select D3D T&L HAL in the Video options menu (rather than selecting D3D HAL). How come? I would have expected a speed gain instead.

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  2. #2
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    Hey, come on!!
    Everyone is talkink about T&L these days, all day long, but no one is interested about how it works in real life/games; just that benchmark stuff?!

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  3. #3
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    HW T&L are used to increase the complexity in the game, not make it run faster. (more polygons on screen, more detail...)

  4. #4
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    yes but the reason you can have more polygons on screen is because you can process those polygons faster. If you render a screen with say 20,000 polygons on it with T&L it will come out faster than without T&L (in theory). so Mephisto should be right, T&L should run faster than non-T&L, OR it should look significatly better, one ot the other. Just like increased fill rate, you can have higher FPS or more complex scenes

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  5. #5
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    Well, I'm not entirely sure about this, but as I remember it, the advantage with Shiny's engine is that you set a specific speed, I use 30 fps, and all other power from your CPU / v-card is used to increase the polygon count on the screen. And the engine is not that optimised for HW T&L. I guess we have to wait for Sacrifice to see it used to the utmost...
    But, you can always ask Shiny the question as they have their forum at http://www.voodooextreme.com or at least they used to have it there. It seems to be down now for the moment...

  6. #6
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    Is your processor 900mhz or better? It may actually process the transform and lighting faster than the GeForce2. Even though the GeForce2's lighting is much much better than GeForce1 there is still a limit where the processor is faster. Otherwise I would say it's just not a good implementation of hardware T&L in the Messiah game code.

  7. #7
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    Originally posted by 23skidoo:
    Is your processor 900mhz or better?
    Oh, yeah, I'd love to have a 900 MHz!
    Sadly, I don't, but you're right; a very fast processor would do T&L faster than the T&L chip on the Geforce.
    It must be the game-code itself or D3D; both Quake3(partial T&L support) and MDK2 demo (full T&L support) run fine in OpenGL.



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  8. #8
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    Must not be a good T&L implementation, there were also some stability issues with having T&L enabled on GeForce256 when running Messiah. I think Messiah was released just after the GeForce was so they may not have had time to really do it right.

    I know Gunship! doesn't have a good implementation either, seems the same to me whether using T&L or regular D3D. There isn't a frame counter or demo to check it but I really can't tell a difference. I don't have any other D3D games that give me the T&L option to try it out.

    Benchmarks and demos have it like Mephisto said. "Hooray I'm getting 45 fps in treemark", "I really kicked *** in Treemark today", "did you see me run around that tree", "did you see those fireflys zooming", he-he; more fun than a barrel of monkeys!!

    There will be some good games coming out soon that really do use T&L, I'm sure of that. The GeForce has really sold well and other cards are supporting it now so we can expect them anytime. Is MDK2 available as a demo? I've looked for it and can't find one anywhere, I usually demo a game before ploppin down the cash.

  9. #9
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    Yes there's a demo. It's also on a lot of pc mag cover discs. Get it from http://download.cnet.com/downloads/0...0_103_1.lst.td

    Also, I put out this question at Shinys forum, you can read any response, if they do response, at http://forums.voodooextreme.com/Foru...ML/000307.html

  10. #10
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    Thanks for the link! I looked for the demo when MDK2 came out and never could find it, even on Cnet. Download tonite and give it a spin.

  11. #11
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    Interesting reply to your post in the Messiah forum. Like you said Jmike, more polygons get used when using T&L and not speeding up existing polygons. Can anyone see the visual difference when enabling hardware T&L in Messiah, maybe a screenshot comparison? Is there a detail level setting to change, maybe limiting the characters to say 40 polygons and then getting a speed increase? Don't have Messiah but it seems interesting from a hardware perspective.

  12. #12
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    JMike,
    where did you get that (obviously true)information about Shiny's engine? I generally read a lot about these things, but never stumbled over that.
    Now I bought this game, not too happy about it, though the idea is great.

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  13. #13
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    Mephisto: Well, from the first moment I read about the GeForce (some time in sept- 99) I was hooked on it, and read almost everything about it I could find. Including games that are / going to support HW T&L. And there was alot written about it, interviews and articles. If you read some articles from oct - dec 1999 you should find some info about it. Now, I have a lousy memory, so I forget a lot, so I really can't say anything specific. But the RT-DAT technology in Messiah / Sacrifice is what scales the polygon count onscreen, according to how powerfull gaming rigg you have. (Btw, I bought my Annihilator PRO when it was released in dec -99)

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