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  1. #46
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    Originally posted by insanityfell
    I've actually known more atheists to be more open-minded than "believers". Most of us tried searching for a path to believing, I know I did. What it all boils down to is that every religious group has those that try to preach to those that don't want to hear it. I am more than willing to speak to anyone about anything that they do or do not believe in, and I know that many others out there are the same, no matter their beliefs. Actually, the moment that I became open-minded on the subject was when I realised I couldn't find the truth. From that day on, I have lived life not knowing where I am going (in the after-life sense). I have made goals for myself, abide by the laws that are set by my government, and try to makes those in my life as happy as I would like myself to be. It's the only true happiness that I've found

    I understand that completely, I meet Seekers all the time, everyday in fact.

    I don't push anything on them at all, but I am always there to try and answer their questions and help in any way that I can with an open mind and a kind ear.

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  2. #47
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    Originally posted by jankerson
    I understand that completely, I meet Seekers all the time, everyday in fact.

    I don't push anything on them at all, but I am always there to try and answer their questions and help in any way that I can with an open mind and a kind ear.
    I would like to think that everyone would be just the same as you are, jankerson. I say, let go of all the insanity, find a medium in life, and accept and respect those that do not follow what you do. Hence, the ID... Insanityfell !!
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  3. #48
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    Originally posted by insanityfell
    I would like to think that everyone would be just the same as you are, jankerson. I say, let go of all the insanity, find a medium in life, and accept and respect those that do not follow what you do. Hence, the ID... Insanityfell !!

    I guess I should point out that I do some councelling now and then as I am a good Listener and Look at things Logiclly with an open mind. I guess that's why I am the way I am, but then I have always been that way.

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  4. #49
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    You can't talk about one subject and not allow the other, each subject poses a question that needs to be looked at from another perspective, it almost drives you there thus being closed minded becomes sheltered which would come from fear of exploration hence curiosity demands more answers.

    Tolkien though a novelist alluded to something about the past that concurs with researchers examining the past and how we came about, middle earth being another world and how it was run.

    How do you come out of the stone age to build a massive pyramid using pi then all of sudden your just starting the bronze age before the iron age? Doesn't make sense.

    I'm waiting for this experiment to be finalized when you have an out of body experience when your dying and see what the doctors are doing and then come back, so now there putting objects on top of cabinets that only an out of body experience would see, I can dismiss some of it but not all of it.

    A child in india for instance knew of another name and where objects were kept that only this name knew and come to find out a few villages away that it was somebodies else's son meaning that maybe reincarnation was to blame as its happened here in the states and everywhere else. Again I can dismiss some but not all.

    You see a ghost and what does that mean, personal experience of a relative was saved by a ghost aside from other things I've seenl.

    Thats why you can't talk about one without talking about the rest, too many questions keep throwing chinks in the armor.

  5. #50
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    Originally posted by Richard R.
    LOTR movies are just that. MOVIES. Gandolf is a fictional character, lol.

    God is who He always was, is and will be.

    Again, if you read a bit into the Bible, you'll see He has everyones best in mind. If we all lived according to His Will and ways, we'd all be full of love and caring about one another. No need to figure anything out or wonder about anything. Just do what's right, and what's right is right there in that one book.
    Books are just that. BOOKS.
    What's wrong with my statement ? Movies are the books of these times.

    Now about imagination, there are theories that say it comes from random shortcuts in our brains between senses. Some people actually smell things when they see something, some others do see colors when they think about numbers, and so on, and that (on a lower scale for average people) makes us associate things that have no logical link. That would be the essence of all imagination and art. Very interresting and for me a valid explanation.
    As for me the purpose of life is to find the purpose of life. Once you think you've found it, you're either old or fanatic. Or dead. Meanwhile, enjoy it. I'm 36 now en when I look back on how I was seeing life when I was 19, I realize there was such an evolution that I can have no idea how I'll see it when I'm 80, so how could I even try to discuss that with someone that doesn't see what's in my head ? No way. Those questions have no answer. Ever. Unless your old or fanatic. Or dead. We're just evolved monkeys, maybe something better will come later that will understand far more of all of this. As we already should understand far more than people living 4000 years ago. Wether they were writing books or not.
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  6. #51
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    Yeah but what is that makes "random shortcuts in our brains between senses"

    You just took the whole thing one level further (I dont know if in the right direction), but the question remains.

    I know random is a function even some calculators have, yet there are pretty good tests done on Cornell for the benefit of CIA that are now partially available to public, "where random would have a hard time being random", since it can be predicted.

  7. #52
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    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Richard R.
    LOTR movies are just that. MOVIES. Gandalf is a fictional character, lol.

    God is who He always was, is and will be.

    Again, if you read a bit into the Bible, you'll see He has everyone’s best in mind. If we all lived according to His Will and ways, we'd all be full of love and caring about one another. No need to figure anything out or wonder about anything. Just do what's right, and what's right is right there in that one book.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So here is my atheistic rant:

    Did I say I believe in Gandalf as you believe in God?
    Did I say that Gandalf was more than a fictional character?
    I merely quoted a line that is my belief from a medium in common usage.

    Gandalf - created by man.
    Movies - created by man.
    Books - created by man.
    God - created by man.
    Do you see the connection?
    There is little if any more proof that God existed (exists) any more than Gandalf existed. This is why they call it FAITH.
    In my opinion it is God who is the greatest fictional character of all time! For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible.

    God told man to write the bible. Therefore the Bible is true in your eyes. God is responsible for everything.
    Who is it to say that God did not tell Tolkein to write the LOTR books and create characters like Gandalf? Therefore Gandalf is a creation of God.

    Did Hitler kill the Jews personally? - Probably not.
    Did Hitler order the Jews to be killed? - Probably so.
    Did Germans kill the Jews? - Absolutely.
    Did Hitler Kill the Jews because God wanted it so? Who is to say?
    It is a question of accurately selecting words to present truth.
    You are right Jankerson, in 4000 years who will remember and who will care.

    The problem that I have with religion is that GOD is responsible for everything that is good and MAN is responsible for everything that is bad. YET man is a creation of God. The whole 'free will' paradox. If I love someone it is because GOD has filled my heart with love. If I HATE someone it is because of my HUMAN animalistic tendencies or perhaps even the work of the DEVIL.

    This kind of childish way of looking at the world is outdated.

    I believe that GOD and the belief in GOD were instilled into mankind at an early age from 'outside'. I believe that some space faring race stumbled upon this dust ball we call EARTH and saw in us the potential for survival and perhaps greatness. They took pity on us and tried to give us the 'keys' to achieving higher conscience. One such key was the BIBLE. As you all say it is a textbook for life. Do not get me wrong; the BIBLE has been beneficial for many people who have lost their way. That is WHY it is there!!!

    In my opinion, only those that are truly lost need to be found and the BIBLE lets these people find themselves in GOD.

    Many of us are NOT lost and NOT in need of being found by GOD.

    In your opinion, all those that are not FOUND in GOD are lost.

    It is a question of accurately selecting words to present truth.

    I do not concur with your beliefs and I am not lost.

    On another subject. I believe that there are many things that are beyond our understanding but not beyond our comprehension. Ghosts, UFOs, Time travel, Space travel, Astrology, Science, Tarot, you name it. In the world of GOD all these things are the work of the Devil. As I said previously, this kind of childish way of looking at the world is outdated.

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  8. #53
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    Biological meaning of random. We have sufficient knowledge about genetic, and maybe you'd call it pseudo random but some things can hardly be predicted, as the colour of the eyes of a child. On an other level, mutations can also hardly be predicted.
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  9. #54
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    Yeah but "hardly" means beyond our current comprehension, not impossible

    At least thats how I see it

    Mind you science would like you to belive they have some final answers and can predict whats possible in the future, whereas IMO they really are but lost children in the dark and nothing more.

    And to know how lost hey are, just consider "string theory".
    Last edited by F_A_L_C_O_N; May 2nd, 2005 at 12:26 PM.

  10. #55
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    Originally posted by rangeral
    You can't talk about one subject and not allow the other, each subject poses a question that needs to be looked at from another perspective, it almost drives you there thus being closed minded becomes sheltered which would come from fear of exploration hence curiosity demands more answers.

    Tolkien though a novelist alluded to something about the past that concurs with researchers examining the past and how we came about, middle earth being another world and how it was run.

    How do you come out of the stone age to build a massive pyramid using pi then all of sudden your just starting the bronze age before the iron age? Doesn't make sense.

    I'm waiting for this experiment to be finalized when you have an out of body experience when your dying and see what the doctors are doing and then come back, so now there putting objects on top of cabinets that only an out of body experience would see, I can dismiss some of it but not all of it.

    A child in india for instance knew of another name and where objects were kept that only this name knew and come to find out a few villages away that it was somebodies else's son meaning that maybe reincarnation was to blame as its happened here in the states and everywhere else. Again I can dismiss some but not all.

    You see a ghost and what does that mean, personal experience of a relative was saved by a ghost aside from other things I've seenl.

    Thats why you can't talk about one without talking about the rest, too many questions keep throwing chinks in the armor.

    I see what youre saying, but i already know the believers argument, its all written in a book, anyone can read it. This is why i didnt want to hear it, we all know that side of the story, i wanted to hear from those who believe this place is just what it is, a crazy trip.


    AMD Guiy hit it perfect, that is the sense i was looking for.


    Richard R- im glad you have your beliefs, and even though mine arent the same as yours doesnt mean im lost either.

    I do want to ask you though, as been already said here, if god did create all of us and everything we see, then who or what created god? and who created that?

    Its that latter of infinity that defies the explination written in the bible. The bible is one of the greatest novels ever written, some of its substance, but there are many holes too, as my question to you explains.

  11. #56
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    Originally posted by AMD Guy



    So here is my atheistic rant:

    Did I say I believe in Gandalf as you believe in God?
    Did I say that Gandalf was more than a fictional character?
    I merely quoted a line that is my belief from a medium in common usage.

    Gandalf - created by man.
    Movies - created by man.
    Books - created by man.
    God - created by man.
    Do you see the connection?
    There is little if any more proof that God existed (exists) any more than Gandalf existed. This is why they call it FAITH.
    In my opinion it is God who is the greatest fictional character of all time! For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible.

    God told man to write the bible. Therefore the Bible is true in your eyes. God is responsible for everything.
    Who is it to say that God did not tell Tolkein to write the LOTR books and create characters like Gandalf? Therefore Gandalf is a creation of God.

    Did Hitler kill the Jews personally? - Probably not.
    Did Hitler order the Jews to be killed? - Probably so.
    Did Germans kill the Jews? - Absolutely.
    Did Hitler Kill the Jews because God wanted it so? Who is to say?
    It is a question of accurately selecting words to present truth.
    You are right Jankerson, in 4000 years who will remember and who will care.

    The problem that I have with religion is that GOD is responsible for everything that is good and MAN is responsible for everything that is bad. YET man is a creation of God. The whole 'free will' paradox. If I love someone it is because GOD has filled my heart with love. If I HATE someone it is because of my HUMAN animalistic tendencies or perhaps even the work of the DEVIL.

    This kind of childish way of looking at the world is outdated.

    I believe that GOD and the belief in GOD were instilled into mankind at an early age from 'outside'. I believe that some space faring race stumbled upon this dust ball we call EARTH and saw in us the potential for survival and perhaps greatness. They took pity on us and tried to give us the 'keys' to achieving higher conscience. One such key was the BIBLE. As you all say it is a textbook for life. Do not get me wrong; the BIBLE has been beneficial for many people who have lost their way. That is WHY it is there!!!

    In my opinion, only those that are truly lost need to be found and the BIBLE lets these people find themselves in GOD.

    Many of us are NOT lost and NOT in need of being found by GOD.

    In your opinion, all those that are not FOUND in GOD are lost.

    It is a question of accurately selecting words to present truth.

    I do not concur with your beliefs and I am not lost.

    On another subject. I believe that there are many things that are beyond our understanding but not beyond our comprehension. Ghosts, UFOs, Time travel, Space travel, Astrology, Science, Tarot, you name it. In the world of GOD all these things are the work of the Devil. As I said previously, this kind of childish way of looking at the world is outdated.

    That was a good Post, and one of the more Mature views I have heard from the Athiest side of things in a long time.

    Good job.

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  12. #57
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    be careful on labling all non-believers as athiests. I wouldnt call myself one, just because the fact that there are so many things in this universe, and so many things that work and fit together just right- there must be some explination. I feel much better being called out agnostic. An athiest would believe that all of this is mere coincidence, or that none of its even real. I dont see how, all of this cant be for nothing, at the very least this is some sort of sick fantasy being played out.

  13. #58
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    Originally posted by krupted
    be careful on labling all non-believers as athiests. I wouldnt call myself one, just because the fact that there are so many things in this universe, and so many things that work and fit together just right- there must be some explination. I feel much better being called out agnostic. An athiest would believe that all of this is mere coincidence, or that none of its even real. I dont see how, all of this cant be for nothing, at the very least this is some sort of sick fantasy being played out.
    I don't and didn't.

    AMD Guy is an Athiest.

    And my post was directed as a response to his, that's why I quoted his post.

    An athiest would believe that all of this is mere coincidence, or that none of its even real.
    No that is not correct.

    A true Athiest does believe there is a God and also the Devil but chooses not to worship either.

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  14. #59
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    Originally posted by AMD Guy
    I believe that some space faring race stumbled upon this dust ball we call EARTH and saw in us the potential for survival and perhaps greatness. They took pity on us and tried to give us the 'keys' to achieving higher conscience. One such key was the BIBLE.
    I think even the God theory looks much more realistic than that.
    by krupted
    I dont see how, all of this cant be for nothing
    That's the big line.
    I must admit that at a given point in thoughts, the existence of God has been an evidence though I've never come across something that could demonstrate that God does not exist. I'm still open (well, who think he's not ?) but not lost (but who knows wether I'd realize if I was )
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  15. #60
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    Atheism


    There are two main forms of atheism:

    Weak atheism, also known as implicit atheism and negative atheism, is the absence of belief in the existence of deities. A weak atheist may consider the nonexistence of deities likely, on the basis that there is insufficient evidence. An argument commonly associated with weak atheism is that of rationalism: one should believe only what one has reason to believe. Theists claim that a single deity and/or group of deities exist. Weak atheists do not assert the contrary; instead, they refrain from assenting to theistic claims. Because of a lack of consideration, or because the arguments and evidence provided by both sides are equally unpersuasive, some weak atheists are without opinion regarding the existence of deities. Having considered the evidence for and against the existence of deities, others may doubt the existence of deities while not asserting that deities do not exist. They may feel that it is impossible to prove a negative, or that the strong atheist has not been relieved of the burden of proof, which is also required of the theist, or that faith is required to assert or deny theism, making both theism and strong atheism untenable. Agnosticism is the epistemological position that the existence or nonexistence of deities is unknown and possibly unknowable. Agnostic theism regards understanding that the existence of deities is unprovable and continuing to hold theistic beliefs. Similarly, agnostic atheism concerns understanding that the existence of deities is unprovable while being without theistic beliefs. For a discussion of agnosticism and its variants, see: agnosticism, weak agnosticism, strong agnosticism, agnostic atheism.


    Strong atheism, also known as explicit atheism and positive atheism, is the belief that no deities exist. This may be based on the view that there is insufficient evidence or grounds to justify belief in deities, on grounds such as the problem of evil, on arguments that the concept of a deity is self-contradictory and therefore impossible, or on the assertion that any belief in the supernatural is not rationally justifiable. It may also be based on an appreciation of the psychological characteristics of faith and belief (see True-believer syndrome, for example), and of a subsequent critical attitude towards any system that encourages faith, belief, and acceptance, rather than critical thinking, from its adherents.
    Under the broader definition of atheism (that is, the "condition of being without theistic beliefs"), which is characteristic of "weak atheism", nonbelief, disbelief or doubt of the existence of deities are forms of atheism. However, many strong atheists, agnostics, and theists use a narrower definition of atheism, according to which it is the active "denial of the existence of God or gods". Adherents of this definition would not recognize mere absence of belief in deities (that is, "weak atheism") as a type of atheism at all, and would tend to use other terms, such as "skeptic" or "agnostic" for this position.

    In English, believers usually refer to the monotheistic god as "God". In many philosophical and/or esoteric interpretations of monotheism or henotheism, God is not thought of as a supernatural being — as a deity or god; rather, God becomes a reified philosophical category: the All, the One, the Ultimate, the Absolute Infinite, the Transcendent, the Divine Ground, Being or Existence itself, etc. For example, such views are typical of pantheism, panentheism, and religious monism. Attributing anthropomorphic characteristics to God may be regarded as idolatry, blasphemy, or symbolism. Some theists may not believe in, or may even deny, the existence of deities as supernatural beings, while maintaining a belief in god as so conceived. For example, the Protestant theologian Paul Tillich described God as the 'ground of Being', the 'power of Being', or as 'Being itself', and caused controversy by making the statement "God does not exist", resulting in him occasionally being labelled an atheist. Nevertheless, for Tillich, God is not 'a' being that exists among other beings, but is Being itself. For him, God does not 'exist'; God is the basis of Being, the metaphysical power by which Being triumphs over non-Being. Most (though not necessarily all) atheists who deny the existence of deities as supernatural beings would also deny this and similar conceptions of God, or consider them incomprehensible. A relatively new category is 'antitheism', which states that religion is destructive. Those who consider themselves antitheists are opposed to any form of religion on the basis that it promotes conflict among those who do not share the same beliefs.

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