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Thread: "The ideal water block"

  1. #151
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    Jul 2002
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    66
    I haven't updated you in a while because one of the hard drives in my RAID got full of bad blocks, I lost a lot of important data and I had to get a new HD, I had no working PC in the last few days. I replaced the 2 40GB samsung 5400RPM for a single 80GB maxtor 7200RPM. Everything is fine now.

    I'm working hard to get those blocks on the web site for sale ASAP. If everything goes as planned they will perform and look much better than the beta version.

    Now I'm mainly working on the stainless steel clips for AMD and P4, they will be made of colored stainless steel, it looks a bit like anodized aluminium (as in the color is not paint it is really "in the metal", in fact it looks much better because it's polished so it's shiny.. I

    I personally like red but I asked around and most people want blue, I think it will be blue but I'm not sure yet, I'll probably get some in different colors and see which one looks better.

    @Todd: I was joking, I know any people don't like the holes (the mother board ones )

    I will keep you posted.

    Thanks
    Bruno Facca

  2. #152
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    Jul 2002
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    Lately I haven't been posting here as much as I usually did, don't think I'm slowing down the project or something like that, I'm just spending most of my time working on the block, other pieces of the "watercooling kit" or running around after people to do services for me (also for the block).

    The model I was going to use for this cast was slightly irregular, one of the sides was like 1.5 or 2 degrees less inclinated than the others, there was no way to fix it so I started making a new one, the hard/time consuming part, that is the block structure itself, side walls and bottom is done, I also got the stainless steel pins that I designed (they're 12mm tall, 5mm in the bottom, 3mm in the top and 0.5mm of 6mm base on the lowest part to increase a little the contact surface so it glues firmly, it will also cause a little extra turbulence), I was making the internal divisions today when I had a new idea, since the thing is not together yet I can still make any changes I want to the inside of the block.

    I tought of something to put the inlet right above the core, the advantages would be that the water under the core would be the colder water in the whole block because it just entered and the turbulence from the watter hitting the base of the block right on top of the core will also help increasing heat exchange in that area.

    Everything in black (except the circles) represents walls that go from the base to the top of the block, the black circles are the pins. Number 1 is an illustration of the actual design of the block and 2 is my new idea.

    These drawings were made in a hurry, took me less that 10 minutes so they're not in scale at all, the size of the pins in the drawings is too big, side walls are too thin and so on, it shouldn't matter since these drawings were only made so you can give me your opinion on my new design idea.


    Pin locations could be changed in any way, for now the most important thing to discuss is the overall shape of the channels. How do you think this would perform and why? I would like to have everyone's opinion on this.

    I will do a GPU version of it as soon as I have the time, I was planning on making the GPU version together with the CPU one but my time is too short so I had to give up on that for now.

    Thanks
    Bruno Facca
    Last edited by Bruno Facca; November 15th, 2002 at 07:24 PM.

  3. #153
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    Dec 1998
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    Grand Haven, Michigan, USA
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    Having a split water path can lead to a lot of trouble. Getting the water resistance even is very hard to do, resulting in more water flowing down one path. I like your old design better. I think it should work just fine.

    How much is shipping to the US from you (in US dollars) for jusr the waterblock and clip? Have you found a place that could do electoplating for you (say if someone wanted a special order) and how much would it cost? A shiny stainless steel clip is nice. I would not paint that. Also could you sodder it shut and not use screws if someone wanted?

    Maybe you could set-up a specialty order setup to get custome blocks.
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  4. #154
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    Jul 2002
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    Thanks for your opinion on the new design.

    As much as I'd like to be able to provide custom made blocks, special orders and stuff I really can't. I wuldn't have the time for it and I would make me go crazy. That's why I'm asking people just about everything, asking them to vote and so on, there will be only 4 variations:

    1/2 hole mounting
    1/2 clip mounting
    3/8 hole mounting
    3/8 clip mounting

    I'll make sure the block comes out as nice and as good as it can be.

    @Todd: You won't have to pay for the shipping, as I promised a long time ago, I'll send you 1 for free as soon as I can. That may take a while since I have over $1000 in debts right now.

    For everyone else reading this: I would like to send a free block to everyone that helped me but if I did I would be sending over 500 blocks so that's impossible. I'm sending one to Todd because I promised him, and I always try to keep my word.

    Thanks
    Bruno Facca

  5. #155
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    Sep 2001
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    I'm not too sure the #2 idea will work for the same reason Todd a mentioned. Its always easier just to have one path for the water to travel. Otherwise it would take the path of least resistance and not as much water/pressure would go to the other side.

    I gave up on my clip idea because it wasn't really working out how I thought it would. Have you decided for sure on a clip design yourself?

    For those of us not getting free blocks, is the price going to be near $15USD as you first guessed?
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  6. #156
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    Dec 1998
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    I seem to recall $20, but the shipping could be quite a bit. Thanks for the free block. I really do apresiate this (whenever it does come), but you did not have to tell everybody. 1/2" is refering to the outside diameter of the tubing right? That is what I want. The inside diameter of the tubing is 3/8 I think on the stuff I use. Clip all the way!!! Of corse red would be nice!!! Hee Hee!
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  7. #157
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    Oh and the picture is pretty old. I now have a cold cathode instead of that cheap neon.mm much brighter. I have a red case fan in back and the diagnostic LEDs on the motherboard are red. Also my Gainward GeForce4 Ti 4200 is a nice red too. Red is just cool.
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  8. #158
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    Originally posted by Todd a
    1/2" is refering to the outside diameter of the tubing right? That is what I want. The inside diameter of the tubing is 3/8 I think on the stuff I use.
    Yeah that's what I have too..
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  9. #159
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    Jul 2002
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    You have a point on the split water path, thanks.

    The price is $15 for the 50 first units as I promised, shipping is around $10, it depends on the country.

    I haven't actually measured the inside and outside of the hose fittings, when I say 1/2 they're hose fittings to be used with 1/2 hoses (just ask for 1/2 hose in the store), same thing for 3/8.

    @DuronClocker: I designed a custom shaped acrylic clip to use with the hole mountings so the top of the block doesn't have to be bigger than the block itself. It's also much easier to install. I'm still working on the socket clip.

    @Todd:
    but you did not have to tell everybody
    I just answered your question, you sounded like I wasn't going to send you the block for free (entirely) as I promised. Is that a problem?

    Bruno Facca

  10. #160
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    Dec 1998
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    Actually I was just a bit curous as to how much it cost to ship. This effects how well you can market them over seas. I figured it would be closer to $20 to ship, but I do not ship stuff over seas... ever really. If it costs you $10 to make and $10 to ship you can still sell them for a competitive price over in the US. If you find a distributor to carry your product you can do even better, but they will take a cut out of your profits.

    You could possibly try some place like this:
    http://www.bestbyte.net/

    They have good prices and are not too big and they have lots of case mod and cooling stuff, but no water cooling.
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  11. #161
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    Jul 2002
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    Right now I have some "limitations" (for instance no stock and a small stock soon) so I can't use a middleman but it's something to think about for the future. Nice web site.

    Thanks for your ideas, I got some good stuff to think about.

    People's opinions are very divided and so is mine, if I were to do a "vote count" on the forums I post it would be something near 50%/50% so (guess what ?) I will make a couple of each, test them and start producing the one that performs better, that shouldn't take more than a day to test.

    The guy that was supposed to deliver the copper plate that will be used to make the tops today delayed it, he said it can take to friday to get here

    These things should be ready a long time ago and I'm working hard on them, they wont be ready this week as I tought they were, it sucks depending on other people...

    Thank you
    Bruno Facca

  12. #162
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    Jul 2002
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    I disappeared for almost a week because my distraction killed my XP 1600+, I took the water block I was testing out of the PC, went out to do some stuff, when I got back home I didn't remember the PC had no cooler installed, I turned it on and after a couple of seconds when I realized what I did, the processor was already dead, so I had to wait like 5 days for a new one. It's the second processor I loose this way if anyone knows a "cure for excess distraction" let me know, and before you ask, no, i'm not smoking weed.

    There are so much news I don't know where to begin. Before I begin to tell you the news I'd like to make something clear: By now some (maybe a lot) of people must be thinking I'm one of those guys to talks a lot and actually does little, that is very wrong, I'll explain the reason for all this delay: I depend on other people for some parts of the job, like cutting the tops (4.75mm copper), making the custom hose fittings and painting the tops (epoxy paint), so sometimes a delay is not my delay. Another thing is, casting is a damn complicated process when dealing with small pieces full of detail like these copper blocks so sometimes I have problems with it, like yesterday I did everything right, exactly like the other time when the cast was good and I got 3 good ones out of 15 pieces, that's just not acceptable, that's why I'm doing something diferent (keep reading). So you see I'm working my *** off here, like 12 hours a day to solve all kinds of problem, I also spent over 4500 reais, that is the currency in my country, if converted to dollars it doesn't look much (USD$1285) but the way the economy is in my country think of it as 4500 dollars, that's a good comparision. I will have good blocks, even better, great blocks by the price I told you, soon (keep reading to find out when). So don't stop reading this thread (I think many people did) because I will have great stuff here, as I said I would.

    I made one block of each design I showed you and the one with the center inlet lost by more than 4 degrees celsius (now is the right time for you to say "I told you so" ). I guess it's the split water path thing as you said but I can't say for sure.

    People from a good brazilian forum I've been posting for maybe a month now showed me some proof that decreased mass in a water block increases the performance because it will retain less "residual heat", or "balance heat", or whatever, it don't actually know the name for this but I guess you know whan I mean. I've seen some actual tests as a proof of this, with that in mind I decided to reduce the block until the channels are 1/2 (diameter x height /2), that is the diameter of the hoses so it should still restrict very little flow and leave much room for turbulency, descreasing mass and in theory improving performance, I can't say if they are working better or not because I have no reliable way to measure it, I guess the first person with a good way to measure temps that buys one will tell us.

    I have 13 or 14 good blocks, the people who make my suctom hose fittings have delayed stuff, I'll have the hose fittings on monday and after that all that is left to do is the painting of the tops, I'm really hoping to have those for sale next week.

    As I said before I've been having problems in the cast process, the problems are all related to the molds so I decided to start using a special steel mold with an "extractor" and all sort of fancy stuff (as big companies do to produce a large number of equal stuff) to cats the blocks, that eliminates any possibility of breaking molds, a little sand inside the copper as in the first blocks (previous batch, not this one). To balance (and increase even more I hope) the loss in performance of the smooth inside surface of the steel mold I will add some extra artifacts in the walls to increase surface area and turbulence, always restricting very little flow of course.

    With this new method I'll be able to produce as much as 100 units a week, all of them will be "perfect". My expectations are these blocks will be among the best in terms of performance and finnish.

    I hope I didn't forget anything...

    Bruno Facca

  13. #163
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    Dec 1998
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    The steel mold sounds much better. Yes as long as the channels are not smaller than the hosing, it should be just fine. Sounds like the extra work is paying off and as you improve the design, you should have much less work to get the design to full production. I have worked with plastic injection molding and I know those molding tools can get pretty complicated with lots of slide to form and eject the part. They also have many cooling and heating hoses to help the process.

    We want pictures.
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  14. #164
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    Plastic injection must be cool, I've never seen it. When casting (if you're not casting like 12 hours a day with the same mold there's no need for cooling hoses (they can be useful, but not a requirement), what people usually do is just submerge the mold in water for a minute after casting some 10 pieces...

    I'll post some pics as soon as I get some free time.

    Even not having reliable ways to measure temp the mother board diode can be used to tell an increase or descrease in temperature, still not precise but right now it's all I have. The new and smaller blocks with thinner walls actually performed worst than the big ones, so I did a project from scratch and the iron mold (I said steel but it has to be iron) is already being done, I will have it by mon or tue next week and the day after that I will cast some 50 blocks, it's a very fast and clean job using the iron mold, also, in theory the blocks will be absolutely flawless.

    Those 13 blocks I was going to sell before selling the new ones (made with the iron mold) are not even going to be sold as they don't perform so good and the guy who was supposed to give them finish has left lots of "rounded" walls, that's why from now on finnish will be made with a milling machine and a special tool to make all the outside surfaces _very_ flat, if the bottom needs some more lapping I will use a 600 or 1200 sandpaper in the belt sander.

    I'll post the specs for the new design soon (I'm working on a whitepaper that is needed for the patenting process) as soon as I finish it I will post it, the pin count has doubled or tripled from the photos you've seen, the pins are 4mm on the base and 3mm on the top, they go all the way up to the top of the block, they're arranged in a way that water constantly hits them instead of a straight line where water just hits the first one and passes around the other. Overall measurements are base: 55x50, top: 58x53, height is 15mm (this was calculated so the water has a minimum space of 1/2 to pass, all along the channel, the articacts were considered). There are also new, and more efficient artifacts in the side walls, lots of them. Even with all of that inside the block, the channels are wide and I was very careful not to restrict much flow, it will still be a very little flow restricting block.

    I think this is going to be perfect

    The blocks themsevles (not including the top will be ready almost for sure next week), I'll try to get the tops ready too until friday but that I really can't be sure, I can say that if nothing else goes wrong (and I don't see what could go wrong) I'll have a whole bunch of blocks in the week after next week. As soon as I sell some blocks (so I get some money) I will send blocks to the people I promised (for review), so hang in there

    Thanks
    Bruno Facca

  15. #165
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    The the iron mold is not the smaller blocks, right? Sounds like you have a pretty good set-up now for actually mass producing these. Those injection molding tools I worked with were 500-1000 pounds to just the tool and ran a part a minute 24 hours a day. We used to have larger tools, but we outsorced them all.

    Any luck with a clip yet?
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