"The ideal water block"
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Thread: "The ideal water block"

  1. #1
    Join Date
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    "The ideal water block"

    I'm designing a new water block (for commercializing), my goal is to maximize heat transfer inducing as much turbulent water flow as possible without creating too much flow resistance, I would like to know what are your thoughts on a couple of issues, please help me to give you what you want in a water block:

    1 - How would you like a block that is one piece only (avoiding any leaks)? Do you feel the need to open your block for cleaning (or whatever) from time to time?

    2 - What is your preferred retention system and why? I have some new designs here but there are no pictures available yet. The link below has images of some well known water blocks from various companies, they're all nice blocks, each one has it's own retention system. Please take a look and tell me wich one you like most and why, also any new ideas are welcome. I'm not going to copy anyone else's retention system, this post is just some research about the what the public want in a water block.
    http://paginas.terra.com.br/lazer/bj...aterblocks.htm

    3 - Would you like the hose fittings to be 3/8 or 1/2?

    My water blocks for cooling CPU, chipset and GPU will be available next week, I will post pictures when they're ready. I will also be making water cooled PSUs.

    Thank you
    Bruno Facca
    Last edited by Bruno Facca; July 25th, 2002 at 11:00 AM.

  2. #2
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    Watercooled PSUs are a great idea (as we've seen from the likes of Bladerunner on this forum). I'm sure you'll find a decent market for them.

    1. I don't think it is an issue whether the block is one piece or not as long as it doesn't leak (not what you were asking, I know, hehe). Being able to open it up and clean it would be a bonus, yes, although due to the anti-corrosive/anti-fungal coolant mixture most people run it won't be absolutely necessary. I wouldn't sacrifice performance of the block to make it possible.

    2. By far the best two waterblock retension mechanisms I have seen are those made by Koolance and Innovatek. They are also the most complicated, however (especially the Koolance one). I can't really comment on those in the pics as I have never used them, sorry.

    Hope this helps!

    MuFu.
    Opteron 144@2.8GHz (stock HS/fan), Asus A8N-SLI SE (passive NB), 1.5GB RAM (2:3:2:5, 2T), WD Raptor 740GD 74GB, Maxtor DM10 300GB, Asus EN7600GT SILENT@???, M-Audio Revo 7.1, Nebula DigiTV, Dell 2005FPW, Enermax 431W Active.

  3. #3
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    @Mutha Funker: Bladerunner's watercooled PSU is a lot like the idea I have except for block size, location and mounting.

    I wouldn't sacrifice any perfomance either I will make it openable.

    I looked into the retention mechanisms you mentioned, they are complicated indeed but I'm giving them some studying.

    Thank you
    Bruno Facca

  4. #4
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    I personnally like the inside design of the Danger Den Maze blocks. They lots of nice wide channels for heat transfer. The other thing I would do it use a plexiglass top on it. That just looks cool. You can hang it over the edge and mount the block through the holes in most Athlon motherboards (of coarse this is not a "requirement" by AMD anymore and they might disapear completely over time).

    This is what most people would likely want, but I don't really like doing this. I prefer the tabs on the ZIF socket instead. A 6 cleat hook would be fine, like most of the better heatsinks have switched to. This has the disadvantage that the waterblock is limited to about 60x70mm. This might not be big enough to cool some CPU (especially when using peltiers). If you make the block taller with very deep, but slightly narrower channels (1/4"x1"), you should be able to get plenty of serface area. The waterblock would be about 60x70mm and about 40mm tall. This is actually still smaller than most heatsinks still.

    This is the Maze3:



    This is the Maze2:



    This is the Maze1:



    This is basically like what I would want but twice as thick with more, narrower and deeper channels.

    A clip like this would likely do just fine:

    AMD Phenom II x4 945 3Ghz | ASUS M4A77TD | 2X WD 1TB SATA 2 hard drive | 2x2GB Corsair XMS3 | nVidia GeForce 8800 GTS | ATI TV Wonder Theater Pro 550 | Antec P-160 case | Antec 650w Earth Watts | LG Blu-ray Super Drive | LG DVD RW | Windows 7 Pro

  5. #5
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    O.K. I think this might make more sense. I took a few minutes to scrible out a design idea for the shape. Just add a clip like the one above.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    AMD Phenom II x4 945 3Ghz | ASUS M4A77TD | 2X WD 1TB SATA 2 hard drive | 2x2GB Corsair XMS3 | nVidia GeForce 8800 GTS | ATI TV Wonder Theater Pro 550 | Antec P-160 case | Antec 650w Earth Watts | LG Blu-ray Super Drive | LG DVD RW | Windows 7 Pro

  6. #6
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    @Todd a: These are nice blocks, the finnish on maze 1 and 2 doesn't look very good to me.. Thanks for taking your time to draw your design idea, I'm not able to make this in time but I may build one of these for testing later, you can e-mail me at advancedcooling@terra.com.br.

    Thank you!
    Bruno Facca

  7. #7
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    I made sketches of the block and of 2 retention mechanism ideas I had today, some detail is lacking in the block because I had no time for doing a better model in 3dsmax. Please give me some feedback.



    If the image doesn't load go here http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/bjfacca/

    Thanks
    Bruno Facca

  8. #8
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    I have never used a water cooling system before, but i was curious about the results of a block that had a top that looked like a traditional heatsink (with fins). This would aid a little bit in cooling at the source. Since you are working on a new concept, maybe you could try making a cap of this design and see what kind of results you get? Anyone think there would be a benefit?

  9. #9
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    seems like a decent idea to me. it would work a bit as a heat sink as well..i would think

  10. #10
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    Maybe it's something to try but in my opinion it doesn't worth the hassle, it would probably take a fan to get a significant temp drop and the retention mechanism would get even more complicated, sorry...

    Bruno Facca

  11. #11
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    The springs on the retension clip is a bad idea. You are not pushing dirrectly down on the CPU. Just have the thumbscrew put pressure dirrectly over the core. Getting the heatsink or waterblock 100% flat is VERY important. That is one reason I do not care for using the holes in the motherboard. They tend to use screws and such and you need to adjust it several times to get it perfect. It is almost impossible if the motherboard is already installed in the case. With a single contact point pushing dirrectly over the core, you cant go wrong as long as it is easy to connect the heatsink and apply pressure. Inovatek has a pretty snazzy one, but it might be harder to make.

    As for your waterblock it is a pretty basic design. The channels are nice and wide for good flow, but the amount of surface area is pretty limited. That is why I suggested a taller block with much more channels. Think about it, if you make the channels 1/2"x1/2" and (by my guess) about 6" long, even counting top, bottom, and sides, you are only looking at 12 square inches of surface area. With my block you are looking at 1"x1/4" and about 12" of channels. You now get 30 square inches of surface area. The wavy edges will increase surface area, but increase turbulance quite a bit. Most of the water will get trapped in those waves and ridges and most of the water flow will only be in the middle. If you could make the ribs run with the channels, it would work better, but be harder to make.

    Also the lack of sharp corners will increase flow and the large chambers at the inlet and outlet will help cut down turbulance as the water changes to the tall and narrow channels. You might even taper the input and output holes at the bottom to curve into the channels at the bottom. With your block the sharp corners will decrease flow in the corners and increase turbulance. The more turbulance you add, the harder your waterpump needs to work. If you know much about water pumps, they generate very little pressure and most can not even pump water above 6 feet.

    I've been looking into water cooling pretty heavy for the last two years. If you like my ideas and want to use then, all I ask is for some free stuff. I do not have much money to spend on my water cooling though. I did build a water cooling system out of scraps and copper tubing. Total I spent about $60 on it and the MAG 250gph pump cost $35 of that. I just upgraded it a bit with some elbo peices and a smaller radiator so I could fit it INSIDE my case. Here are some pictures of the new system:
    Attached Images Attached Images
    AMD Phenom II x4 945 3Ghz | ASUS M4A77TD | 2X WD 1TB SATA 2 hard drive | 2x2GB Corsair XMS3 | nVidia GeForce 8800 GTS | ATI TV Wonder Theater Pro 550 | Antec P-160 case | Antec 650w Earth Watts | LG Blu-ray Super Drive | LG DVD RW | Windows 7 Pro

  12. #12
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    The picture is kind of small (took it with my Sony HandyCam TRV820), but this picture shows the radiator a bit better. I used a box of 3/8" copper tubing (20 feet for about $12) and I coiled it into a spiral about 5" across and 3" high. I then coiled it over itself to the same height. Then I loosened up the coils so there was a small gap between the coils. That is about 25 square inches of surfas area. My old one was about 15' with fins cut out of the copper tubing soddered into it. It was very bulky and about 5x8x4" and used a 120mm fan. I slapped it onto my K6-2 450 running at 2.6v and 504Mhz. At idle it sat at 75'F (room temp) when run for 24 hours. I then put it under load for 24 hours and the temp rose to about 85'. This was with the fan turned off.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    AMD Phenom II x4 945 3Ghz | ASUS M4A77TD | 2X WD 1TB SATA 2 hard drive | 2x2GB Corsair XMS3 | nVidia GeForce 8800 GTS | ATI TV Wonder Theater Pro 550 | Antec P-160 case | Antec 650w Earth Watts | LG Blu-ray Super Drive | LG DVD RW | Windows 7 Pro

  13. #13
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    The heat pipe idea seems like a lowe cost, easy to install possibility that somone like I might move too before a watercooling system.
    http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.html?i=1661&p=6
    Interested in any opinions regarding this.
    Last edited by evetsrim1; July 27th, 2002 at 02:43 PM.
    Technology increases at a parabolic curve upward.

  14. #14
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    Heatpipes have some very nice features but they are limited on how much heat they can transfere and how far. Without a pump to increase the flow rate the heat transfer is limited. Heat pipes will never be able to compete with good water cooling systems. Water cooling can be increased by increasing water flow or surface areas of the waterblock or radiator. The big problem is they are pretty big and require at least a little mantenance.
    AMD Phenom II x4 945 3Ghz | ASUS M4A77TD | 2X WD 1TB SATA 2 hard drive | 2x2GB Corsair XMS3 | nVidia GeForce 8800 GTS | ATI TV Wonder Theater Pro 550 | Antec P-160 case | Antec 650w Earth Watts | LG Blu-ray Super Drive | LG DVD RW | Windows 7 Pro

  15. #15
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    About the springs, a hard mounting is what I was aiming at in the first place, some people said springs would help to make even pressure on the block and prevent you from crushing the CPU core. I was thinking: a couple of heatsinks I used for cooling my CPU before going water cooled were so hard to fit I had to push down the metal clip very strongly for it to get to the socket lugs, that was an enormous pressure on the core, I think if that didn't break my core a hard mounted water block wouldn't either, unless you screw it really hard using pliers or something. I will make a single contact point over the core, a big contact point and maybe with a thin sheet of hard rubber so it will hold the block in place better without decreasing the pressure.
    Also a guy at procooling's forum gave me this simple yet effective idea: you can also post into bios and use the temp monitor to adjust the pressure on each corner of the block untill you get the lowest temp.

    @Todd a: About your block, here are my toughts: The big surface area on the inside sounds good, the thing is, causing turbulence is one of my main objectives, it makes a little harder for the water to pass (that's why the channels are wide) but it can even double heat transfer, making the ribs run with the channel would give me the same surface area but it will cause the flow to be more laminar, making it easier for the water to pass but also decreasing heat transfer between the copper walls and the water. The closer you get to the copper wall the slower will be the water flow, in fact the water molecules that are touching the copper are not moving at all, between this still molecules and the "free stream area" that would be the middle there is something called boundary layer, this is the part of the flow that is moving but it's slow because it suffers from the "friction" caused by the contact with the water block (and the still water molecules), this is bad because the boundary layer kind of insulates the hotter water that is closer to the copper from the colder water that is running at a higher speed at the center of the block decreasing heat transfer a lot. When you have small, smooth channels the boundary layer might even be the size of the whole channel. Turbulent flow decreases very much the size of boundary layer making the heat echange much better even if the flow rate is suffering a bit from it.
    Nice rig you got in there, especially that radiator, looks small and effective, I want to try one of these soon, have you ever tought about building one with 2 or 3 coils in parallel? That would probably increase flow rate and decrease pump stress. too bad copper tubing is kind of expensive here.
    Have you ever calculated how much watts of heat your processor dissipates? I guess mine would be about 70W. I would like to know that because your temperatures are quite impressive.
    Last edited by Bruno Facca; July 28th, 2002 at 12:45 AM.

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